only another butch would understand

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thanks Toughy and Red. My concern is that, as is pointed out in the video, violence and aggression is part of the cultural norm of masculinity- cultural norm being key. If we don't ever examine this how can we as masculine people be so sure we are just incorporating the positive aspects of masculinity, given how the dark side is so glorified? We see much of the macho attitudes and sexism alive and well in queer culture, and unfortunately domestic violence and abuse as well.

Yes there are differences in that most of us were raised as females and not necessarily socialized to be masculine. I do believe our own brands of masculinity are different because of this. However at the same time so many of us felt masculine and were drawn to masculinity from an early age, so I don't think we are immune from what our culture tells and shows us. Masculinity in and of itself I see as positive, but unexamined masculinity- given the cultural norms- can be quite dangerous and damaging.

I think that all of us who identify in some way as masculine need to examine masculinity. I also think that those that identify as male or men have a responsibility of realizing just how pervasive male violence is, how damaging misogyny is, how male is overwhelmingly valued over female both in society in general as well as queer culture. You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things. You have a responsibility to recognize that. Just like me being a white person- when I am in the presence of people of color the space is whiter than it would be without me and I have white privilege. You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are. I am not saying anyone participating in this thread is doing this- it's the general you I am talking about.

Bully, I am on my home desk top right now and this computer is about to hit the recycle bin. I could not run the video on this relic. I tried. Hence, I am going to use your above post to comment on "unexamined masculinity." The portions I agree with are in blue. The underlined portions is where I disagree or need further clarification.

"Having male identified people in it changes things." Are you talking about male privilege? Just to throw in another wrench to all of this; what if you pass as male consistently but are female identified butch? In my mind this could also be a potential example of perception that provides for male privilege.

Honestly, when I started to take T 18 months ago, something inside of my conciousness shifted. I became much more cognizant of the fact that I was going to be treated with more respect by many because of their perception. Frankly it took me many years to make the decision to take T. For me, I did not think taking T would make myself that much different from when I identified as simply a Butch. But as I move further into my transition I am looking much more closely at masculinity and what does that mean in the macro and micro.

I have hopes of being a hybrid model of a masculine entity that is the combination of all aspects of who I am. A Butch/Transman, socialized as a woman now presenting as masculine, "male."

The examination of masculinity now even more so will beongoing. I am treading new territory and have no intention of abandoning the Butch-Femme Queer community.

I realize my post is scattered. I'm tired but I think you have brought up a very important and timely topic for discussion.

[BullDog]

Greyson thank you for your post. I am not quite sure where you disagree with me, but we can always further discuss. Having male identified people in a community introduces male privilege on many different levels. It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large, it is the effect that is has within a community itself as well. Things are different because there are male identified people within butch femme communities. Female/women identified butches have to fight like hell to be seen or heard, male defaults get used for butch- all of which is ridiculous since most butches do identify as female. The reason we have to fight like hell is because butch gets equated to male and male is more valued.

As another example- gay men are masculine as well- some more than others. Whenever I have been in mixed settings lesbian/gay men the power dynamic is completely different than with just a lesbian setting. It is still a queer setting, but men tend to take over and take up a disproportionate amount of space.

You say you expect to be treated better now that you take T- to me that is a privilege. The fact that you recognize that the examination of masculinity as a Butch/Transman is ongoing and you find the discussion important to me means you are willing to take responsibility and work for change, and I appreciate that very much.

[Cyclopea]

Thank you for your answers. I was dumbfounded as to why the only negatively rated thread was the butch bonding thread.
As to the questions others have asked: I became conscious of being butch when others kept telling me I was. Often prefaced by the word "too".
And the pronouns- No I do not like being called bro or male pronouns. Out in the world I just assume the person is not paying very close attention. Unless it's a 'phobe saying it, in which case they are implying I am less than a real woman. If it is online from a stranger I just assume they are sexist and misogynist and that they elevate maleness over femaleness. Of course for those who prefer male pronouns for themselves I respect that preference completely. In that instance the person is only being themselves and I respect the bros that do. But I am not a bro.
Aso, I do burp on occasion but I try not to .

[Tommi]

"only another butch would understand", Hmmmm.. looking at title.

Hmmm..looking at posts..Looking up understand..Google Butch, and see what the world "understands" about us..Hmmm
Butch and femme

""Quote: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Butch (disambiguation).

Butch and femme are LGBT terms describing respectively, masculine and feminine traits, behaviour, style, expression, self-perception and so on. They are often used in the lesbian, bisexual and gay subcultures. A similar term, femme is also frequently used in the crossdressing community. Sometimes butch is used synonymously with dyke.

Happy Hump Day to those Butches that understand.

Butch and femme are sometimes used to represent two sides of a relationship, as in yin and yang, although some people prefer butch-butch and femme-femme relationships."""end quote

I Know What Butch Is.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv89wbZHzNQ"]YouTube- I Know What Butch Is[/ame]

[Jess]

LMAO Tommi, ty ever so much! I haven't read this yet and it will be on my" list of books this butch will actually read," unless I can find it on audio book in which case I will listen to it while driving to meet my femme for a date that I will pay for unless she wants to or I will wait for the movie which I will take her to and open the door for her and buy her popcorn unless of course she decides that we should see it at at LGBT pvt viewing at the community center, which we of course do not have because we live in the southside of hillbilly hell.

I will definitely be buying this because it reminds me so much of how the heated threads on line regarding "defining and labeling" so often go.

Needed a good chuckle this morning, thank you Tommi

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Greyson thank you for your post. I am not quite sure where you disagree with me, but we can always further discuss. Having male identified people in a community introduces male privilege on many different levels. It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large, it is the effect that is has within a community itself as well. Things are different because there are male identified people within butch femme communities. Female/women identified butches have to fight like hell to be seen or heard, male defaults get used for butch- all of which is ridiculous since most butches do identify as female. The reason we have to fight like hell is because butch gets equated to male and male is more valued.

Bulldog, I recognize that my voice may not be welcome in this thread, and that certainly, there is nothing that I, not being a butch person, can solely understand. But I am hearing what sounds like some older Second Wave feminisms being utilized to dislodge a, perhaps, mythic misogyny in an on-line community.

Don't misread me. I hear you when you say that male has too often been a default for butch in these spaces. I believe that has more often been the fault/responsibility of the butches who actually identified as female and their partners. A need was felt to differentiate between the pairs. It helped to show who was masculine and who was feminine. Everyone enjoyed it. It got carried away. As the space became more accepting of transpeople and transgendered folks, the lines became blurred, and female identified butches appeared to have been swept under the tide. The gender wars seemed to have arrived. (I believe it's up to everyone to put those wars behind us. It was no one person's fault.)

But, Bulldog, it seems that (by your posts) you might be failing to recognize what a male identified person's actual, REAL time experience is like. Even a transman's. For someone who is female bodied but male id'd, please show me the privilege? Who, except his partner and close friends are even showing him understanding? And for the transman, what of the incredible hurdle of transphobia and bullshit he had to face to get to where he is now?

And can we really experience gender privilege in an online space? Given the total lack of acceptance these folks are facing in the day to day, it seems like another voice saying: You're just a guest here, you know. Watch your "male privilege."

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Bulldog, I recognize that my voice may not be welcome in this thread, and that certainly, there is nothing that I, not being a butch person, can solely understand. But I am hearing what sounds like some older Second Wave feminisms being utilized to dislodge a, perhaps, mythic misogyny in an on-line community.

Don't misread me. I hear you when you say that male has too often been a default for butch in these spaces. I believe that has more often been the fault/responsibility of the butches who actually identified as female and their partners. A need was felt to differentiate between the pairs. It helped to show who was masculine and who was feminine. Everyone enjoyed it. It got carried away. As the space became more accepting of transpeople and transgendered folks, the lines became blurred, and female identified butches appeared to have been swept under the tide. The gender wars seemed to have arrived. (I believe it's up to everyone to put those wars behind us. It was no one person's fault.)

But, Bulldog, it seems that (by your posts) you might be failing to recognize what a male identified person's actual, REAL time experience is like. Even a transman's. For someone who is female bodied but male id'd, please show me the privilege? Who, except his partner and close friends are even showing him understanding? And for the transman, what of the incredible hurdle of transphobia and bullshit he had to face to get to where he is now?

And can we really experience gender privilege in an online space? Given the total lack of acceptance these folks are facing in the day to day, it seems like another voice saying: You're just a guest here, you know. Watch your "male privilege."

Older Second Wave feminisms- wow I certainly disagree with you there.

Mythic misogyny- wow once again. don't mean to be flippant, I just can't believe you would say that.

Blaming female identified butches and their partners for male language becoming the default? Wow once again. None of the butches I know real time use these male defaults and we have no problem distinguishing who are the butches and who are the femmes. As to the online history I certainly have a completely different take on things than you do.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Blaming female identified butches and their partners for male language becoming the default?

hey Bulldog, i gave this some thought too and i realize that we all (yes, including F -identified butches) have to take some responsibility here for either not speaking up, personally or not questioning the immense use of *HE* when/while it was happening. i think that's actually pretty fair--we *all* need to take some ownership of what it means when we male-by-default or when we don't carve a space for ourselves in the community. either way, all of us owning it is a good thing, to me, it's a great starting (over?) point.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by apretty

hey Bulldog, i gave this some thought too and i realize that we all (yes, including F -identified butches) have to take some responsibility here for either not speaking up, personally or not questioning the immense use of *HE* when/while it was happening. i think that's actually pretty fair--we *all* need to take some ownership of what it means when we male-by-default or when we don't carve a space for ourselves in the community. either way, all of us owning it is a good thing, to me, it's a great starting (over?) point.

I agree we all need to speak up. That is what I am doing now and I, along with other butches like Toughy, have a very long history for speaking up about this very topic. We have worked tirelessly against the invisibility of women and female identified butches. And we have gotten a lot of shit for it along with some support. But yes, I whole heartedly agree with you. Thank you for your post.

[SuperFemme]

Isn't "Male Privilege" akin to "White Privilege" in that because of gender (real or perceived) certain privileges are given even though not strived for?

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Older Second Wave feminisms- wow I certainly disagree with you there.

Mythic misogyny- wow once again. don't mean to be flippant, I just can't believe you would say that.

Blaming female identified butches and their partners for male language becoming the default? Wow once again. None of the butches I know real time use these male defaults and we have no problem distinguishing who are the butches and who are the femmes. As to the online history I certainly have a completely different take on things than you do.

I called it mythic, not because misogyny hasn't happened in our online spaces, but because yesterday it felt to me that you were separating female id'd folks from the male id'd ones in the Who is Just a Bit More Responsible for Examining Their Masculinity. It sounded like transmasculine guys and transmen might be more responsible for misogyny in these spaces. That isn't what I've seen. Hell, I've watched some femmes say some pretty righteous things over the years. And don't misinterpret my investment here. I haven't any. I love every kind of butch there is - equally. I just care that we don't isolate.

And when I first started reading butch/femme spaces, practically *everyone* was he or hy/she-ing. Tell me, who is responsible, if not... all of us?

[Dreams]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Bulldog, I recognize that my voice may not be welcome in this thread, and that certainly, there is nothing that I, not being a butch person, can solely understand. But I am hearing what sounds like some older Second Wave feminisms being utilized to dislodge a, perhaps, mythic misogyny in an on-line community.

Don't misread me. I hear you when you say that male has too often been a default for butch in these spaces. I believe that has more often been the fault/responsibility of the butches who actually identified as female and their partners. A need was felt to differentiate between the pairs. It helped to show who was masculine and who was feminine. Everyone enjoyed it. It got carried away. As the space became more accepting of transpeople and transgendered folks, the lines became blurred, and female identified butches appeared to have been swept under the tide. The gender wars seemed to have arrived. (I believe it's up to everyone to put those wars behind us. It was no one person's fault.)

But, Bulldog, it seems that (by your posts) you might be failing to recognize what a male identified person's actual, REAL time experience is like. Even a transman's. For someone who is female bodied but male id'd, please show me the privilege? Who, except his partner and close friends are even showing him understanding? And for the transman, what of the incredible hurdle of transphobia and bullshit he had to face to get to where he is now?

And can we really experience gender privilege in an online space? Given the total lack of acceptance these folks are facing in the day to day, it seems like another voice saying: You're just a guest here, you know. Watch your "male privilege."

excellent post!!

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Great post Metro. I am not at all interested in perpetuating stereotypes, and you covered the issues very well.

I enjoyed your post as well Mister Bent, although I don't tend to bond with people over masculinity per se. As an example straight males are masculine too, and I find that I have very little in common with most of them. Masculinity may be a bonding element for some. For me, not so much. I have found that in other organizations and communities where it was supposed to be butch space but ends up being "masculine" space and butches- and in particular female and woman identified butches- tend to get erased and many false assumptions made. I do like bonding with a wide range of people and gender identities- but not at the expense of my gender identity when it is suppposed to be a place for my kind- just something to keep in mind for all.

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thanks Toughy and Red. My concern is that, as is pointed out in the video, violence and aggression is part of the cultural norm of masculinity- cultural norm being key. If we don't ever examine this how can we as masculine people be so sure we are just incorporating the positive aspects of masculinity, given how the dark side is so glorified? We see much of the macho attitudes and sexism alive and well in queer culture, and unfortunately domestic violence and abuse as well.

Yes there are differences in that most of us were raised as females and not necessarily socialized to be masculine. I do believe our own brands of masculinity are different because of this. However at the same time so many of us felt masculine and were drawn to masculinity from an early age, so I don't think we are immune from what our culture tells and shows us. Masculinity in and of itself I see as positive, but unexamined masculinity- given the cultural norms- can be quite dangerous and damaging.

I think that all of us who identify in some way as masculine need to examine masculinity. I also think that those that identify as male or men have a responsibility of realizing just how pervasive male violence is, how damaging misogyny is, how male is overwhelmingly valued over female both in society in general as well as queer culture. You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things. You have a responsibility to recognize that. Just like me being a white person- when I am in the presence of people of color the space is whiter than it would be without me and I have white privilege. You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are. I am not saying anyone participating in this thread is doing this- it's the general you I am talking about.

The statements I bolded in blue sound contradictory to me. Is it just me?

The statements in red seem contradictory to me as well.

Also, what would you deem the "positive aspects of masculinity", as you put it? Conversely, what would you consider the positive aspects of femininity to be? Or the negative for that matter? Also you seem to categorize sexism and violence as masculinity, yet you identify as masculine. How does one go about extracting only the positive 'male' or 'masculine' qualities from 'masculinity'? Are females or feminine people never sexist or violent?

What has always and continues to confound me is why masculine/masculine-identified/transmasculine butches, who are female-identified, seem insistent on attributing certain traits/behaviors (you know, the ones we can all be proud of - independence, capability, strength, resourcefulness/handiness, farting prowess, etc) to males/masculinity to begin with. And then I'm told I "can't just be here to get fluffed up and told how manly I am." Well, to that I say, don't fluff me up and tell me how manly I am. ha.

And then the same butch (not picking on you bulldog but since you did it this time... will go on to direct the general 'you' here (which includes me, a male) on how to behave in what I'm hearing you say is (predominantly, if not completely biologically) female space, of which I am unfailingly aware. You said, "You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things." I agree. That's why I don't feel I can have it both ways. But I do see quite a lot of butches claiming and embracing masculinity where they like and wanting a lot of praise for it and simultaneously feeling entitled to commit all the sexism and misogyny you can shake a dick at without consequence or at the very least met with a great deal of understanding and forgiveness.

I personally never hear anyone other than female-identified butches talking about this continuum of masculinity that seems to exist somewhere. Creating and perpetuating this type of hierarchy is sexist and misogynist, when anyone does it. I find it especially betraying when females do it to other females, butch and femme alike, especially to women of trans experience who are femme or are female-identified butches and were socialized to be someone's/society's idea of what is 'male' or 'masculine' and are trying to find acceptance and safety in a b-f space as females.

Let me pose a question to the general you - if you're female-identified and you gender behaviors and personality traits, why don't you attribute your best to your female socialization and your female traits/hormones that are inherent within you? (And I'm not talking just compassion and nurturing and those stereotypically female traits here - strength, power, determination, bravery, assertiveness, resourcefulness - you don't think you developed these qualities by living in a female body? And I've not transitioned so I'm not speaking from a place of male privilege here because I do not receive it. I'm speaking as someone who has experienced oppression and discrimination and sexism and misogyny in a female body just like everyone else here at one time or another. In my own sexist mind my best qualities are because of female hormones and socialization. I know these communities are microcosms of a larger society but why bring the larger society's norms into your queer space and perpetuate them? If you can't change patterns of thinking within your little corner of queer space then you're not likely to change the world outside of that space.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Ben-Her

The statements I bolded in blue sound contradictory to me. Is it just me?

The statements in red seem contradictory to me as well.

Also, what would you deem the "positive aspects of masculinity", as you put it? Conversely, what would you consider the positive aspects of femininity to be? Or the negative for that matter? Also you seem to categorize sexism and violence as masculinity, yet you identify as masculine. How does one go about extracting only the positive 'male' or 'masculine' qualities from 'masculinity'? Are females or feminine people never sexist or violent?

What has always and continues to confound me is why masculine/masculine-identified/transmasculine butches, who are female-identified, seem insistent on attributing certain traits/behaviors (you know, the ones we can all be proud of - independence, capability, strength, resourcefulness/handiness, farting prowess, etc) to males/masculinity to begin with. And then I'm told I "can't just be here to get fluffed up and told how manly I am." Well, to that I say, don't fluff me up and tell me how manly I am. ha.

And then the same butch (not picking on you bulldog but since you did it this time... will go on to direct the general 'you' here (which includes me, a male) on how to behave in what I'm hearing you say is (predominantly, if not completely biologically) female space, of which I am unfailingly aware. You said, "You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things." I agree. That's why I don't feel I can have it both ways. But I do see quite a lot of butches claiming and embracing masculinity where they like and wanting a lot of praise for it and simultaneously feeling entitled to commit all the sexism and misogyny you can shake a dick at without consequence or at the very least met with a great deal of understanding and forgiveness.

I personally never hear anyone other than female-identified butches talking about this continuum of masculinity that seems to exist somewhere. Creating and perpetuating this type of hierarchy is sexist and misogynist, when anyone does it. I find it especially betraying when females do it to other females, butch and femme alike, especially to women of trans experience who are femme or are female-identified butches and were socialized to be someone's/society's idea of what is 'male' or 'masculine' and are trying to find acceptance and safety in a b-f space as females.

Let me pose a question to the general you - if you're female-identified and you gender behaviors and personality traits, why don't you attribute your best to your female socialization and your female traits/hormones that are inherent within you? (And I'm not talking just compassion and nurturing and those stereotypically female traits here - strength, power, determination, bravery, assertiveness, resourcefulness - you don't think you developed these qualities by living in a female body? And I've not transitioned so I'm not speaking from a place of male privilege here because I do not receive it. I'm speaking as someone who has experienced oppression and discrimination and sexism and misogyny in a female body just like everyone else here at one time or another. In my own sexist mind my best qualities are because of female hormones and socialization. I know these communities are microcosms of a larger society but why bring the larger society's norms into your queer space and perpetuate them? If you can't change patterns of thinking within your little corner of queer space then you're not likely to change the world outside of that space.

Ben-Her I have no idea why you see the parts of my posts that you bolded in red and blue as contradictory. You have lost me there.

You said this: But I do see quite a lot of butches claiming and embracing masculinity where they like and wanting a lot of praise for it and simultaneously feeling entitled to commit all the sexism and misogyny you can shake a dick at without consequence or at the very least met with a great deal of understanding and forgiveness.

You seem to be saying this as if you are disagreeing with me, but I agree with this whole heartedly.

I also agree that my best traits come from my experience being socialized as a female.

I am confused where your disagreements with me are.

[Admin]

Just to be clear:

This space is supportive of female-identified Butches, masculine-identified Butches, Male-identified Butches, Trans Men, Trans Women, Genderqueers, Femmes, and everyone else who falls somewhere along the gender spectrum.

I know that we can incorporate our spaces peacefully and respectfully.

One of the ways that BFP is going to work to help folks feel more visible is to make sure that the "how do you identify" section our our profiles will also include a "preferred pronouns" portion that will be displayed with the users name here in the posts.
Until then, we should all be *asking* one another for the correct pronoun for that person without assuming that it is "he", "she", "hye", "ze" based on how we identify ourselves.

[BullDog]

Thank you!

[Darth Denkay]

This is great news. When I was new on another site I got the impression that male pronouns were the default for butches, and because I am masculine-identified that suited me just fine. It wasn't until years later that I realized that was not okay with some people. It has been difficult to know how to refer to folks, and having this specified I hope will have a significant impact on valuing all butches.

In reading over this thread, one thing jumped out at me. I don't know how prevalent this is, but I actually do not identify as female or male. Now, biologically I am female (sex) but when female and male are used to define gender I don't use either. I see it as once again falling into a binary. I identify as masculine, I have masculine energy, but I am not male. A butch friend once described himself as FTNF - female to not female - which really resonates with me. The act of not identifying as female (gender) but not identifying as male either.

Binaries suck, because they seldom, if ever, work.

Originally Posted by Admin

Just to be clear:

This space is supportive of female-identified Butches, masculine-identified Butches, Male-identified Butches, Trans Men, Trans Women, Genderqueers, Femmes, and everyone else who falls somewhere along the gender spectrum.

I know that we can incorporate our spaces peacefully and respectfully.

One of the ways that BFP is going to work to help folks feel more visible is to make sure that the "how do you identify" section our our profiles will also include a "preferred pronouns" portion that will be displayed with the users name here in the posts.
Until then, we should all be *asking* one another for the correct pronoun for that person without assuming that it is "he", "she", "hye", "ze" based on how we identify ourselves.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Admin

Just to be clear:

This space is supportive of female-identified Butches, masculine-identified Butches, Male-identified Butches, Trans Men, Trans Women, Genderqueers, Femmes, and everyone else who falls somewhere along the gender spectrum.

I know that we can incorporate our spaces peacefully and respectfully.

One of the ways that BFP is going to work to help folks feel more visible is to make sure that the "how do you identify" section our our profiles will also include a "preferred pronouns" portion that will be displayed with the users name here in the posts.
Until then, we should all be *asking* one another for the correct pronoun for that person without assuming that it is "he", "she", "hye", "ze" based on how we identify ourselves.

Just a general reminder to word our posts carefully that this place retains a welcoming feel to everyone.