only another butch would understand

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Medusa

This is all bockety and jangly but I hope people can see that I am owning my own small part in the erasure. I know that this issue isnt "all about me" but I want to be clear that I do NOT think it would be healthy of us as a community to create yet another binary where the masculine-identified folks or Transmen are 100% responsible for the erasure of female-identified Butches.
I do think that there is work to be done around the inherent hierarchies that are created but I think we can all work together to do that work.

With grace. With respect. With honor.

My femme voice may also be intrusive but I feel a need to be heard here.

I love that part of your post, there IS work to be done. We are the same folks that have participated in this same subject before. My eyes gaze over when I see shots being taken at someone for basically pointing out the obvious regarding this. It's not always about being what we perceive as right.


Grace, respect and honor, three little very powerful words.

I would like to say that I AM a butch ally. I want to learn, I want to hear the struggles of what has brought the butches of my community to where they are today. I honor their journey.

I feel an undertone of anger and that silences me. I want to ask questions and HEAR people because I do care, but I struggle to get past the atmospheric anger. We should and could all be proud of who we are without anyone taking offense to that. I should not feel a need to defend who I am because someone else posts about who they are. We are all equally important. I hope this conversation continues in a good light so I can learn more..

Great things come from critical thoughts. Bad things happen when those thoughts are disrespected.

I love my butch with all my heart and personally would not care how he chooses to ID, that is his preference. It's what in the heart that counts. I do however care a great deal about his journey, every step of it. I am so proud of who he is today and respect every step he took to get here. None of those steps should be dismissed, ever.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by Toughy

It may not be a popular idea, but I do believe that butch/femme space is first a female space. It started that way.

Toughy, I didn't see where you expanded on this statement anywhere and I know in some respects this has been addressed by others, but this bothers me. If this is an example of how others feel, it may explain to me why there seems to be this ongoing bucking up against this wall of Male-Identification being accepted into our BF community (as equal shared space) and on some levels even being seen as a threat by some members. Not that I'm saying in any way this is what you meant, or what your feelings are behind your statment, Toughy. But when I read your statement this is how it makes me feel.

I disagree that the BF community is first a Female space. I believe it is equally shared between all of us regardless of Male or Female Identification or Gender Fluid. I also believe that no one can say that the BF community started that way unless the very first BF relationship is documented somewhere and it is proven that the Butch was Female-Identified. The Butch very well could have been Male-Identified or Gender Fluid.

I do believe as always we all need to be respectful of each other no matter how anyone identifies and remember we are all in this together as equals in an equal space.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Toughy

It may not be a popular idea, but I do believe that butch/femme space is first a female space. It started that way.

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

Toughy, I didn't see where you expanded on this statement anywhere and I know in some respects this has been addressed by others, but this bothers me. If this is an example of how others feel, it may explain to me why there seems to be this ongoing bucking up against this wall of Male-Identification being accepted into our BF community (as equal shared space) and on some levels even being seen as a threat by some members. Not that I'm saying in any way this is what you meant, or what your feelings are behind your statment, Toughy. But when I read your statement this is how it makes me feel.

I disagree that the BF community is first a Female space. I believe it is equally shared between all of us regardless of Male or Female Identification or Gender Fluid. I also believe that no one can say that the BF community started that way unless the very first BF relationship is documented somewhere and it is proven that the Butch was Female-Identified. The Butch very well could have been Male-Identified or Gender Fluid.

I do believe as always we all need to be respectful of each other no matter how anyone identifies and remember we are all in this together as equals in an equal space.

The idea of 'first a female space' comes from about 37 years ago when I first went in a gay bar in Amarillo Tx. What I really meant was ........at the time butch was woman..........I was trying to find the words in today's meaning.

It is that historical personal perspective that drives my belief that butch is first (started out as) a female/women space. The language was about 'women's space'. Whether anyone liked it or not or even thought about it, then, butch was woman. If you had a clit and a vagina, you were a woman. It was simple for the large majority of us.

Do I believe that to be true today? No....not at all. Today the butch (and femme) conversation is about concepts that I never heard of or imagined when I was 20. If you had said 'gender identity' and 'at 57 i claim 3 genders' to me at 20, I truly would have written you (and me) off as a whacko nut job that needed to be institutionalized. (And..<grin> ... I was also a Republican) It truly is a brave new world.

My view of the world today is not what it was almost 40 years ago. My statement was simply a statement of the historical perspective of butch that I experienced in real time almost 40 years ago. Something I think should be honored. Honoring that history does not mean I do not honor what butch means today.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Toughy

The idea of 'first a female space' comes from about 37 years ago when I first went in a gay bar in Amarillo Tx. What I really meant was ........at the time butch was woman..........I was trying to find the words in today's meaning.

It is that historical personal perspective that drives my belief that butch is first (started out as) a female/women space. The language was about 'women's space'. Whether anyone liked it or not or even thought about it, then, butch was woman. If you had a clit and a vagina, you were a woman. It was simple for the large majority of us.

Do I believe that to be true today? No....not at all. Today the butch (and femme) conversation is about concepts that I never heard of or imagined when I was 20. If you had said 'gender identity' and 'at 57 i claim 3 genders' to me at 20, I truly would have written you (and me) off as a whacko nut job that needed to be institutionalized. (And..<grin> ... I was also a Republican) It truly is a brave new world.

My view of the world today is not what it was almost 40 years ago. My statement was simply a statement of the historical perspective of butch that I experienced in real time almost 40 years ago. Something I think should be honored. Honoring that history does not mean I do not honor what butch means today.

Thanks for this clarification, Toughy. I appreciate this post....

[atomiczombie]

I am a male-identified transguy, not yet transitioned. And I am guilty of reverting to male pronouns and saying "bro" to butches without checking out their pronoun preference first. I do try to be mindful but I slip up sometimes and I am sorry. I never intend disrespect, but I understand that is what is sometimes the outcome. Please call me on it folks, cause it greatly pains me to be referred to with female pronouns, so I know how icky that feels. to all the female ID'd butches.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I am a male-identified transguy, not yet transitioned.

Ditto here.

And as such, pronouns are an issue for me because I havent started my transition. Female pronouns make me cringe...it's just how I am. but I know i have to live with it. What's worse is how many people in the queer community don't get it and don't repect my ID. You would think that others in this community would view me with openness and understanding.

Not true.

The ones who have been most receptive and understanding have been bisexual women who wanted to go out with me and straight women I've met. (I won't date, of course, because I don't want to date anyone.) But I was amazed at how "natural" references and understanding came to bisexual and straight women I've met. It's a far cry from the gay men who didn't want me at their social gathering because their families would be there and the lesbian woman who told me I made her uncomfortable.

Yanno, i'm just tired of all of it. I can only do what pleases me. And maybe day I can be loved for what/who i am.

Anyway, just a comment about my experiences since i haven't dropped in the last several pages. Thanks for reading.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Ol' Jet

Ditto here.

And as such, pronouns are an issue for me because I havent started my transition. Female pronouns make me cringe...it's just how I am. but I know i have to live with it. What's worse is how many people in the queer community don't get it and don't repect my ID. You would think that others in this community would view me with openness and understanding.

Not true.

I know exactly how you feel as a butch when your gender is not respected. Male pronouns make me cringe. But I don't intend to live with it, and I don't think you should live with wrong pronouns either. We just need to keep correcting people. I also concur that one would hope that the queer community would be most conscious of diversity- we don't expect to be invalidated in our own community. We just need to keep educating people. Most of them probably mean well...
As for a girlfriend or partner that tries to inflict hurt through intentional disrespect- that's just nasty and I'm sorry that happened to you.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I am a male-identified transguy, not yet transitioned. And I am guilty of reverting to male pronouns and saying "bro" to butches without checking out their pronoun preference first. I do try to be mindful but I slip up sometimes and I am sorry. I never intend disrespect, but I understand that is what is sometimes the outcome. Please call me on it folks, cause it greatly pains me to be referred to with female pronouns, so I know how icky that feels. to all the female ID'd butches.

Drew...........

you will always have my respect......I will never forget you correcting yourself when you called me bro......it was outside the Eagle............You are the first and only in my real time community that has actually tried to be aware of my preference and gender id as a female/woman who prefers female pronouns. thank you..........

and you can always call me bro..............I do think of us as bro.......

life is not simple...............drew can call me bro with no offense............yet another could call me bro and i would lose my frigging mind in protest of blah blah blah...........

speaking and acting from your heart..........never be ashamed......and always stand by acting from your heart.........

[PapaC]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Drew...........

you will always have my respect......I will never forget you correcting yourself when you called me bro......it was outside the Eagle............You are the first and only in my real time community that has actually tried to be aware of my preference and gender id as a female/woman who prefers female pronouns. thank you..........

and you can always call me bro..............I do think of us as bro.......

life is not simple...............drew can call me bro with no offense............yet another could call me bro and i would lose my frigging mind in protest of blah blah blah...........

speaking and acting from your heart..........never be ashamed......and always stand by acting from your heart.........

*grabbing your squishy ass*.... I miss you, my little sissy-boi.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Drew...........

you will always have my respect......I will never forget you correcting yourself when you called me bro......it was outside the Eagle............You are the first and only in my real time community that has actually tried to be aware of my preference and gender id as a female/woman who prefers female pronouns. thank you..........

and you can always call me bro..............I do think of us as bro.......

life is not simple...............drew can call me bro with no offense............yet another could call me bro and i would lose my frigging mind in protest of blah blah blah...........

speaking and acting from your heart..........never be ashamed......and always stand by acting from your heart.........

Thanks Sis. (hehe). I do respect you a great deal Tough, and you are someone I look up to in the community. I see how unapologetic you are about who you are and your rightful place in this world. It is a good role model for me. I know you have lived though much tougher times when it was more dangerous to be queer, and seeing you stand tall and proud is awesome.